Bigger turbo means lean mixture?

DDracomoderator24 Feb 2011, 08:03

I collected my car yesterday, fuelling is way out though, had the map for the T28....don't really understand, bigger turbo ? supposedly means more air and that translates to lean mixture....not the case....the car is overfuelling like a mofo...dark smoke clouwding the sky while I was driving home.

So if my logic and limited knowladge is anything to go by....the T28 flowed more????....but while they were working they pulled on the harnass from the CAS and I picked up a very bad connection....whether it was there before or just caused by the new install i don't know....but I made a plan just to get the car home....better connection might mean the voltages to the injectors is now what it should be and thats the reason for fuel...

Any ideas?

aaep88624 Feb 2011, 09:02

the standard mangement will automatically add more fuel once it detect more air... to prevent detonation

DDracomoderator24 Feb 2011, 09:03

I run wolf 3D, map sensor.

PPOWDER24 Feb 2011, 09:43

Hey Draco,

Either way, 0.5 bar is 0.5 bar, regardless of turbo size, especially with a MAP sensor. The throtle possition sensor also has no effect on fueling as this is controlled by the FeulMap vs MAP Sensor information. You wouldn't even need to calibrate your Throttle position sensor and it would still work fine. In the case where we are in, the tps is purely for US to see the persent press on the throttle. The throttle controlls the body flap, the body flap controlls amount of air in, the map sensor reads that, and compensates as per the fuel map.

Hope this info helps you out boet, If there is a bad wire, it should not affect ur fueling. The compensation of diffirent type of airflow vs. Timing I could possibly see causing some issue though, but don't know enough about timing to say for sure.

U can test the TPS info by disconnecting the TPS sensor and u can still rev ur engine just fine.

I would though check your vacume line to the MAP sensor, if that is not pressurising right, then u could have fueling issues, ensure no leak or has not popped off......

DDracomoderator24 Feb 2011, 09:47

If a vacuum line popped off to the map....it would not overfuel, as boost increases the map adds fuel...so the lack of boost will make it run leaner rather than richer....mine is running lank rich....

GGrobblere24 Feb 2011, 09:48

Hi powder

Sorry but i will have to disagree with you about the .5 bar theory. Remember that's just the pressure and does not amount to the total flow.

A T2.5 vs T3/4 @ .5 boost cant even be compared to each other.

Look at it this way you have a 5mm pipe that flows at .5 bar boost, and a 10mm pipe flowing at .5 boost, the 10mm pipe "should" will deliver allot more cfm

DDracomoderator24 Feb 2011, 09:51

Grobblere wrote:

Hi powder

Sorry but i will have to disagree with you about the .5 bar theory. Remember that's just the pressure and does not amount to the total flow.

A T2.5 vs T3/4 @ .5 boost cant even be compared to each other.

Look at it this way you have a 5mm pipe that flows at .5 bar boost, and a 10mm pipe flowing at .5 boost, the 10mm pipe "should" will deliver allot more cfm

True....which then means with the bigger turbo I have now....the map should be too lean....why is it so rich?

CCharlvdw24 Feb 2011, 10:08

Does your bigger turbo has wheels in it?
How does she feels?

DDracomoderator24 Feb 2011, 10:12

She feels quite torqey....but as soon as you give some foot it starts spitting dark smoke...some power and shows on boost guage but heavy overfueling....if I rub my finger in exhaust....laods of carbon!!!

CCharlvdw24 Feb 2011, 10:49

The spitting and smoke point towards under fueling.

DDracomoderator24 Feb 2011, 10:53

Charlvdw wrote:

The spitting and smoke point towards under fueling.

Ok...when I said spitting I meant it blowed alot of black...dark smoke...no spitting....

can you explain how dark smoke refers to underfueling please?

CCharlvdw24 Feb 2011, 11:01

Draco wrote:

Charlvdw wrote:

The spitting and smoke point towards under fueling.

Ok...when I said spitting I meant it blowed alot of black...dark smoke...no spitting....

can you explain how dark smoke refers to underfueling please?

I said, spitting and smoke = under fueling.

DDracomoderator24 Feb 2011, 11:05

Charlvdw wrote:

Draco wrote:

Charlvdw wrote:

The spitting and smoke point towards under fueling.

Ok...when I said spitting I meant it blowed alot of black...dark smoke...no spitting....

can you explain how dark smoke refers to underfueling please?

I said, spitting and smoke = under fueling.

Ok...lets get rid of the spitting...no spitting...

Smoke= underfeuling.... as you said....colour?

GGrobblere24 Feb 2011, 11:05

Draco wrote:

Grobblere wrote:

Hi powder

Sorry but i will have to disagree with you about the .5 bar theory. Remember that's just the pressure and does not amount to the total flow.

A T2.5 vs T3/4 @ .5 boost cant even be compared to each other.

Look at it this way you have a 5mm pipe that flows at .5 bar boost, and a 10mm pipe flowing at .5 boost, the 10mm pipe "should" will deliver allot more cfm

True....which then means with the bigger turbo I have now....the map should be too lean....why is it so rich?

To be honest i don't know, there is 2 many things which could lead to this. I recon u would have to dyno it again. 😉

DDracomoderator24 Feb 2011, 11:08

Grobblere wrote:

To be honest i don't know, there is 2 many things which could lead to this. I recon u would have to dyno it again. 😉

That goes without saying....but I just find it strange that it seems to overfuel....when it should actually under fuel...

PPOWDER24 Feb 2011, 11:49

Grobblere wrote:

Hi powder

Sorry but i will have to disagree with you about the .5 bar theory. Remember that's just the pressure and does not amount to the total flow.

A T2.5 vs T3/4 @ .5 boost cant even be compared to each other.

Look at it this way you have a 5mm pipe that flows at .5 bar boost, and a 10mm pipe flowing at .5 boost, the 10mm pipe "should" will deliver allot more cfm

POWDER wrote:

The compensation of diffirent type of airflow vs. Timing I could possibly see causing some issue though, but don't know enough about timing to say for sure

Let me see though if I can get u to agree (which I probably will do) and confuse everyone else. (But will do so when I have access to my laptop and not typing on my blackberry)..... To be continued.....

PPOWDER24 Feb 2011, 15:47

Continuing, finally got my laptop here now.....

:!: (And by the way, this is not to say who's wrong and right, just a lot of people have misconceptions about the subject) 😉

If there was no Air Flow regulation in the system you would be perfectly correct with the CFM notion and it would also surpass 0.5bar, but in this event there is air flow regulation by the Actuator or External Waste Gate.

I maintain 0.5 bar bar boost is still 0.5 bar boost, the Intake and boost pipes have also not changed size which means the capacity of the 10mm pipe has not changed.

a change in turbo size can not change 0.5 bar sissy boost into 0.5 bar super boost, the difference in turbo size only means that the T3/T4 has the ability to create a higher level of boost than the T25 and further more, an increased ability to maintain the boost, making the ability to maintain boost, the only functional factor in a regulated system.

The boost after the turbo is then maintained by the waste gate to remain at no higher level than 0.5 bar boost, the only time this would go beyond 0.5, is if you have a boost spike caused by actuator reaction time and or if the actuator vent is not of a sufficient size to release enough pressure quickly enough to prevent it.

That is why I say 0.5 bar boost is 0.5 bar boost.... So no, it can in actual fact not cause super boosting unless the actuator of what ever type you are using, fails or is over exerted.

As well, even on 5mm pipe vs 10mm pipe, 0.5 is still 0.5, the difference here is the rate of air usage coming out, obviously the piping restricts the air flow rate, but still will not make ANY change to the fact that there is still a regulated 0.5 bar boost. Only difference is that the T25 will have much less lag than the T3/T4, and probably not maintain the 0.5 bar pressure reliably all through the rev range, where as the T3/T4 will have more lag but will be able to maintain a reliable 0.5 bar ALL the way through.

This now is where the CFM comes in, the CFM rate is the turbo's ability to ACHIEVE & MAINTAIN the boost level or regulated boost level, the size of the pipes dictate how much lag you would have, as well as max flow rate between two point (Amount of Restriction between both ends to effectively do their jobs), but this will still not and can not change 0.5 bar boost into 0.5 bar super boost, pressure is absolute, not variable.

An ECU is designed to supply (So much) fuel to 0.5 bar boost, and that is why, if your ECU is mapped to 0.5 bar boost, and remains at 0.5 bar boost because that is what your actuator or waste gate has been set to, it will not effect your AFR, only your response time, in other words your lag.

3300sx24 Feb 2011, 20:23

dunno why you want to blame the turbo.. to me it seems much more likely that if the car was running reasonably before turbo change, and now it does not, that something got screwed up in the process of changing the turbo.. wireing harnass damaged, maf damaged, yada yada..

DDracomoderator25 Feb 2011, 07:36

300sx wrote:

dunno why you want to blame the turbo.. to me it seems much more likely that if the car was running reasonably before turbo change, and now it does not, that something got screwed up in the process of changing the turbo.. wireing harnass damaged, maf damaged, yada yada..

I am not blaming anything....I am trying to make sense of why the car is so heavily over fueling, if wiring was damaged...why over fuel instaed of underfuel...the car runs perfect on idle when it's hot....only when you start driving with some throttle does it blow out clowds of black smoke.

As I said in my first post, there was a wire that got damaged to the CAS with the install...but I am not sure whether it was already damaged before the install, now it is fixed...so that might then cause the overfueling 😕

Very simple question....if it had nothing to do with the wiring...bigger turbo should have meant the old map should be lean not rich...so eliminating the wire issue....does that mean the turbo does not flow as much as the preveous one and because of the lack of air...there is to much fuel 😕

If the engine missed and spitted and struggeled....thats one thing...but over fuel....that has me thinking why>>>

rratadmin25 Feb 2011, 07:41

Draco i agree with your thinking that it should be lean.

68 posts

Sign in to reply.