Project D - 1 DEC 2007

Phinx doesnt have one of my manifolds, not that i sold to him anyways (unless im loosing my marbles) And Phinx, a turbo motors valve overlap would never enable somthing to get sucked backwards from the turbo all the way into the motor, unless your cam timing was TOTALY out.

HKS had a problem with slag about 2 years ago with one of their toyota manifolds, caused over 100 turbo's to pop, thing is, it hits the turbine, turbine throws the turbo out of ballance, it eats itself and you have no boost. The chances of any of that compressor wheel getting threw the intercooler in the 1 to 2 seconds it takes the turbo to destroy its self and not make boost is INCREADIBLY slim. Think about what ive just said logicaly, and read up on people having turbo's fail, it normaly never makes it threw the intercooler before it doesnt have the ability to actualy make boost and get it threw the intercooler.

Honestly i would say you had a bit of slag from your cold pipe or from where they welded your blow off valve flange on, also you mention somthing about a valve guide cracking, all these things are 100 times more likely to have caused the dammage than a peice of slag in the manifold. If it was you should have bits of compressor wheel all over you intercooler's hot side and cold side, but for it to actualy make it up the pipe to the intake manifold without boost being able to help it is near impossible, especialy on a low boost/pressure turbo like the T28's

If it was the manifold's fault which it may well have been, there isnt much I can do, but what I would do is give you a refund and from that point inspect every single unit I have in stock, and inspect every unit I have come in. Honestly I always give them a good one over whent hey arrive to make sure the welding is up to scratch and there are no obvious problems, but i cant be expected to use a boroscope to inspect every one if ive never had a problem with them.

With the oil line, again, ive never had one leak/i have never had anyone tell me it leaks, when you phoned i said have a hydro company recrimp, if i had known you had further problems I would have sent you a new set, im not here to just make money, Rezlo.com is a hobby not a living, and i am unfortunaly one of those types of people that might not come off very friendly but im always here to help, if I had known it was more than just a simple recrimp I would have given you a new set, I havent got rezlo.com to where it is without advertising by giving bad service and rubbish parts, I would like to think it is where it is due to the opposite, maybe im wrong.

Again, im sorry for all the kak your having, and i dont want to try cover my ass, but honestly I think you must go inspect your intercooler REAL hard to check to see if compresor bits actualy got threw the intercooler, because thats the only way it would have got into your engine.

I have now discontinued all of my turbo manifolds...

Cheers

Shit ...

Sorry about the trouble Ian ...
Maybe my theory is totally wrong , Sorry about the trouble

There seems to be a cosistent misunderstanding about the problem here.

THE TURBINE wheel broke please read it again TURBINE. The compressor side is perfect.
Now I am sure all the experts know that there is a vacuum in the exhaust manifold on the overrun this of cause would have allowed the bits of TURBINE impeller to get sucked back through the exhaust manifold into the cylinders.

Now before all the "internet experts" shoot me down let me explain this.

When you shut the throttle there is a vacuum in the intake manifold and the cylinders look at your boost gauge if you dont believe this.

Now when you have a vacuum in the cylinder and the exhaust valve opens do you not think it tries to suck air back in through the exhaust? Now of course the TURBINE impeller is a restriction stopping the free flow of air through the exhaust thus intensifying the vacuum in the exhaust manifold.

Hey presto bits of TURBINE impeller dancing a jig with the pistons.

Duane, ive probably seen over 200 turbo's 1st hand pop the turbine wheel with the kids over boosting the stock T25 and T28's in the US, not once have I ever seen it get sucked back, with a turbo motors valve overlap or the lack there of there is no ways the stock cams will allow this.

Maybe if the engine had wild cams or the car was a NA converted to a FI and still had NA cams this would be possible,

On the exhaust stroke its blowing the air out of the motor with the exhaust valve open, that exhaust valve is closed before the intake valve opens to start sucking the air from the intake in, even if the intake manifold is under vacuum there is no way this vacuum can cause anything to go backwards up the exhaust unless the exhaust valves are not yet closed due to cam timing being incorect or a case of HUGE cams, but even with huge cams the velosity of the air moving in the exhaust will usualy overcome the vacuum in the intake manifold, which is one of the reasons racing cars have a critical figure of valve overlap to actualy help draw freash air into the motor.

Now when you have a vacuum in the cylinder and the exhaust valve opens do you not think it tries to suck air back in through the exhaust? Now of course the TURBINE impeller is a restriction stopping the free flow of air through the exhaust thus intensifying the vacuum in the exhaust manifold

So how does the engine suck in freash air/fuel if the combustion chamber is now full of exhaust fumes? and even if there was a slight vacuum AS the valve opened it would not be for more than 1 maybe 2 degrees for crank rotation, there is no way there would be enough velosity to suck a bit of metal all the way up the turbine manifold in 1 or 2 degree's of crank rotation, which at idle is such a small number 1.1mili seconds i think, which means at an everage runner length of say 30cm it would need to be traveling around the 5000kph to make it up the manifold and threw the valve opening.

Doesnt make sence to me.. maybe somone can draw me a picture? also why does a turbo not come to a stop when you are de-accelorating? if there is vacuum in the exhaust manifold the turbo would come to a stop and actualy spin backwards....

* Vlade scratches his head - while staring at a head with an turbine blade stuck to it *

To be honest it sounded like bull twang to me when Duane first mentioned it... It made sense but goes against what I have learned... I saw the evidence first hand, I believe what my eyes can see...

http://www.yawpower.com/febtech.html
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/february05/nerds/
http://www.engineceramics.com/coating_exhaust.htm
http://www.sxoc.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?p=1509570&highlight=reversion#post1509570

The articles above might not quote turbo reversion directly, but what it does quote is that exists, its a common phenomenon... and it especially happens at low RPM... and that my friends is exactly when I heard the noises that I heard, especially when letting go of the throttle and letting the engine coast down.

* Vlade's PC is blurring with: Metallica - FUEL *

It does happen, im not denying that, especialy on NA cars, infact on NA cars with HUUUUGE cams and ITB's you can actualy see a vapour above DD carbs do to overlap and reverb

Its just that on turbo cars, especialy ones with TINY duration cams it is highly unlikely, especialy when the runner length is increased. I see the one guy was talking about it happening on a gtst, the runner lengh on that motor is about 100mm if that, and with the VVT it gives it that added timing it needs.

I would just say there are to many things that are 100 times more likely to have caused this dammage like slag from your freashly welded bov flange, pieces of valve guide ectr that could had hit the exhaust valve not letting it seat then make its way down to the turbine and cracking it, once cracked and having a dammaged exhaust valve the chances of it getting sucked back are DAMM good.

Just for interest sakes what do you think caused the guide to crack? thats somthing you dont see every day on CA or SR's

Not trying to cause shit here vlade, and if you want me to stop replying in your post just say the word, im just trying to give some practical experience tips to what i think it could have been to save you from possibly having the same problem again.

Seeing as the valve guides were not replaced when the head was reconned its a possibility that the piece broke off ages ago.

Strangely enough it was definitely pieces of Turbine impeller imbedded in the pistons and cyl head. Same shape same thickness same magnetic properties.

So if what I have said is impossible then how did the pieces of turbine impeller get into the combustion chamber?

Remember the compressor turbine is in perfect condition.

piece of slag breaks off bov flange that was just welded on, gets sucked in, bends the intake valve a touch possibly cracking the valve guide, makes its way out the combustion chamber clipping and exhaust valve on the way out, all of which is completely possible, then it hits the turbine wheel cracking it, due to valves that are not seating there will be a suction on that runner, sucking bits of the wheel back into the combustion chamber, from there it is quite possible to suck it right back into the intake manifold which the car is at idle due to intake manifold vacuum, this would enable it to be distributed pretty easily threw the rest of the cylenders making the dammage to where it is now.

Vlade did you inspect the head before sending it to them, or inspect it when you got it back? chances of them not noticing a cracked guide is very very slim, and the chances of them not tellign you it has a cracked guide to make some money out of you is even more slim.

But does what im saying make sence?

The BOV was not welded on at the time that the engine was running 🙁

Did that a day or two before taking it to Duane's shop, by that time it was already F#cked.

The valve guide that was broken was a Exhaust guide and evenly coated with carbon so it had been broken for a while. Plus the car ran evenly on all 4 cyl except when bits got trapped between the valve and seat.
Plus I did a compression test which showed up fine. I reckon that pretty much rules out the bent valve theory.

End of the day I have my theory you have yours. I have no agenda with mine, you have to try and protect your product.
Bottom line is the motor and turbo are somewhat tired and are getting fixed. As far as I am concerned thats all that matters.

As for Vlade's comments about your unbranded products I recall changing SR20 Sumps a few times due to crap castings.

What you sell is your business but you cannot bitch when people complain about substandard products just as I cannot complain if people bitch about shit service on my part.

Im not trying to protect my products, I told you ive already removed them from my site and I do not sell them any longer.

And yes duane, you had 2 oil pans that leaked, as soon as this problem was noted I contacted every customer I had ever sold one to, luckily non of my other batches ever had this problem. I went threw my remaining stock of 15 and threw away 4 which looked semi suspect, the rest i put an NPT plug into each locator, that way even if the pan was perfect there was no chance of it leaking, once that stock had been depleated they were also removed from sale, not one so far has had a leak.

One thing that amazes me about some south african consumers, you prepared to take the risk of running knock off items, but when somthing happens you are the first ones to cry, Myself and Jerry both sell HKS, Silkroad ectr headers at R7000 odd a pop, and we both sell ARC and Greddy oil pans at R4000-5000 a pop, in 3 years Ive sold 1 of each? Yet the remaining people (well over 100 in SA with not one other faliure) would rather buy knock off items knowing full well they are not the same quality, well catch a wake up, if somthing goes wrong bitch, but remember you are the one that desided to run the risk of using a knock off part knowing full well that the chances of somthing going wrong are alot higher than the equivelant name brand item..... I spent hundreds of hours and probably 30-40 sample orders from companies all over the world trying to find the best items to sell here at the most reasonable price, yet when somthing goes wrong which can not even be corectly pin pointed on my product i sold I get physicaly threatend in multiple posts on a publicaly hosted forum?

Thats real nice, thanks.

Again, vlade, I hope you come right, its never nice spending money and having it go up in a ball of smoke.

my two cents on this:

rezlo - the following may sound harsh to you, but my intentions are completely constructive. please understand that before you read further.

rezlo you have a tendency to contradict yourself, and you should be careful. it makes your arguments sound weak. for example, you kept posting your opinion that bits of exhaust wheel couln't possibly find themselves in the combustion chambers. then, a few posts later, you say that it is possible that they were there, as long as they were knocked off by slag from a BOV flange weld. strange dude.

you also have a tendency to ignore the proof on offer. both vlade and calibrator say that they've seen exhaust wheel material in the cylinder head - yet you keep on pushing the theory of the valve guide breaking. these guys have no hidden agenda's, and they just want to get the engine running again.

then you bitch and complain about south african consumers - your own customers. i dont think thats a way to go about running a business, no matter if its your hobby, or if its your livelihood. if you feel so strongly that the knock-off products are inferior, why do you offer them for sale on your site? that i dont understand. i would think that you are confident in the products that you offer - but you should reconsider selling them if they're inferior. your process of buying and testing first is a great initial step in quality checking though, but perhaps full returns, or short term guarantees should would also help.

I never said couldnt, I said its highly unlikely that a car with stock cams and a stock turbo could do it, unless there was a problem, I just didnt post what that problem could be untill later. Once somthing has gone wrong then its easy for it to get sucked back but without somthing wrong in the head its unlikely to near impossible for the turbo to go bad and suck it back into a perfect working motor if that makes sence. Valve guide bending the valve would cause the ability to suck the bits back, but as duane said after i wrote this that the valves were seated perfectly...

I do feel knock off items are inferiour to name brand items, yet i wouldnt just sell any junk made, i went threw the hastle of finding decent items, I even run a turbo manifold from the same supplier on my RB, on my old SR20, on the RXM race cars ectr.

I am also getting rid of (pretty much gone) that whole side of rezlo.com, due to the market being flooded with real junk over the last 2-3 months, which im sure you guys will very soon find out about.

unless its a blatent manufaturers defect not even name brand items can be returned, near every performance item made does not come with a guarantee due to the shear nature of racing and performance items. Again unless it is a blatent manufacturers defect, unfortunatly thats not just me, but thats the actual suppliers/manufacturers.

And im not putting down the south african customers... even myself, I will not go and buy a HKS R7000 turbo manifold for my RB if I know full well the R3000 one I sell will do 99% of what the HKS one can do, but you know what, if in 3-4 years it breaks I have only myself to blame for not going HKS in the first place, which BTW also fail, its just a case of working out if its worth the risk or not. And being south african not many of us have the ability to buy Brand name items, so we settle for 2nd best, but we shouldnt forget its still 2nd best and items do go wrong and do fail and unfortuanatly that is just part of racing and performance.

I honestly have a shit way of saying things, and often what i say gets taken the wrong way, but re-read what ive said in the previous posts, i was just trying to help, and me posting in this thread is doing nothing but waste peoples time reading it, so I will not post in this thread again.

Any updates?? How long before Duane has it on the rollers??

Nothing yet... CP said 4 to 6 weeks for the custom order, we only in week 4 now, plus I must not forget the 4-10 day shipping.

I phoned JIMC (Jhb International Mail Center) to trace an incoming parcel, they have a huge backlog, due the people gone import crazy because of the lekka exchange rates.

This time it should work out fine

Yeah I'm pretty sure it will...

Well my suppliers JGY Customs will have the pistons before end of this week, so the will be in my hands before the 10th of June

Yeah it took long enough finally its here!!!! Yeah now to get on with the building process, that I will leave in Duane's hands.

That is what I needed... waited 13 weeks for it, due a mistake on my side and on my suppliers... so yeah, oh well.

Vlade wrote:

Yeah it took long enough finally its here!!!! Yeah now to get on with the building process, that I will leave in Duane's hands.

That is what I needed... waited 13 weeks for it, due a mistake on my side and on my suppliers... so yeah, oh well.

Sweet. How much deviation from stock is this CA going to be, esp power wise?